Like I’ve said before, I understand the concept of the dump trade and it’s difficult to differentiate between actual value and potential keeper value. If a team wants to trade a stud away, then they can’t just give one player and a mess of crappy parts. Something else on their side of the deal needs to have some intrinsic value, like guys that still have some trade value that the dumping team can still use in other deals.

“the central point here is how much is being given up. who cares if mclouth doesnt turn out to be a keeper if all you gave up for him is two everyday outfielders that are ok but not keepers? if mclouth kicks ass all season, you keep him, if he doesnt, you havent lost a thing.”

I would care very much if I could have turned around and used those two everyday outfielders to package them up for a bonafide keeper such as a Pujols, Utley or Howard-but, was caught-up in the HYPE of an unproven player, only to not protect them at the end of the year and go into the next year feeling duped…

Yes-it is your responsibility as an owner to do your homework, but there have been cases in both our league and another that I have recently heard about and was once an owner in, where owners sometimes feel pressured to pull the trigger or make a trade before they truly feel comfortable about it because they are made to feel that they are stupid or making a HUGE mistake if they pass up on a guy….

Bottom line-if you are making a deal for a keeper-look at 3 year averages and if they don’t have 3 years under their belts-then they are a RISK…PERIOD!

i agree with you regarding the central point of the argument. the main issue is how much is being given up for specific players.

one of the biggest problems is that the bottom feeders of the league don’t care what they are giving up. They’re just trying to glom keepers for the following season, and like I said before, there’s nothing wrong with that. that’s what keeps them involved in a season where their team stinks.

i don’t see a 4 for one for a guy like pujols, wright or utley as being outlandish. they are premium players and have an intrinsic value in a keeper league from year to year that cannot truly be measured.

it’s the josh hamiltons of the world that are the problem. a guy like that shoudn’t fetch nearly the bounty a guy like hanley should, but yet we still see that happen each year.

shopping your studs around for 4 guys is all well and good, but there is nothing that says you cant shop around potential keepers for less. when a team has nothing to lose since they are not going to finish in the money, i dont see it as a poor strategy to trade for guys that may be keepers if they keep it up all season.

the central point here is how much is being given up. who cares if mclouth doesnt turn out to be a keeper if all you gave up for him is two everyday outfielders that are ok but not keepers? if mclouth kicks ass all season, you keep him, if he doesnt, you havent lost a thing.

the bigger issue here to me is overpaying for those “bonafide keepers” i dont care if it is the best player in the game, giving up a ton of production for him changes the entire landscape of the league and is the root of this problem.

so sure, i may shop around potential keepers for a couple guys, but what i do not do is get or give 5 good players for 1 guy and 4 stiffs.

As for McLouth, you most certainly did shop him as a keeper.

I also never said you were asking for a 4 for 1 deal. What I said was, “What happens when someone offers you a 4 for 1 because they’re sold on your assessment of him?” There’s most definitely a difference there.

And your response to that, is definitely different today than it has been in the past. There was certainly a time when you were ok with the dump deals and said that a team should “get the best possible deal for a player” and if the league votes it through, they vote it through. I don’t remember the specific deal, but it was the one from our Japanese comrade that started the whole dump deal craze in the Cooperstown league.

Like I said, my apologies for singling you out, but in the discussion of “bonafide keepers” we’ve had plenty of debates as to who’s worthy and who isn’t. McLouth and Werth were just two names of guys you’ve shopped recently that fit the profile.

im sorry to say that you are mixed up. i was not shopping werth during last season (in fact i was shopping mclouth and was by no means looking for a 4-1). i was shopping werth in the off season for a couple bid dollars. i was not looking to give him up in a dump deal at all.

but theoretically, if someone offered me an unfair deal, which is what i assume is the point you are trying to convey with the 4-1 (since 4 shitty players for him may be fair) i would counter it with a fair offer, as i have in the past.

to single me out as an example and use wrong information in hypothetical scenarios paints me in a bad way, and more than that it ticks me off. either use a fake name, or get your facts straight.

i have a very good record on dump deals. i rarely make them, and when i do it is usually 2 good players for my better player.

i look forward to convering what future dump deals are made and by who as the trading deadline approches…

I think one of the biggest issues that happens in these dump deals is the definition of a “bonafide keeper”. Where do you draw the line for that?

Hanley Ramirez, Albert Pujols, Alex Rodriguez, David Wright, and Chase Utley — to me, these guys are bonafide keepers. Rock solid production year in, year out and at the top of their position each season.

Josh Hamilton, Nate McLouth, Jayson Werth, Carlos Quentin, and Matt Kemp? Bonafide keepers? I don’t think so. Sure, on some of the weaker teams, these borderline guys may be considered a keeper, but are these guys worth the same amount in a deal as the aforementioned studs? No way.

And that, is where I think one of the biggest problems lies in this issue. You’ve got a team up top quoting first half numbers for McLouth, telling the league what he’s on pace to do and shopping him around like he’s a keeper for next year.

And sorry Keith, but same with Jayson Werth. I’m just using another example and I don’t mean to single you out, but you have gone on record as being a huge Werth fan (Bleacher Banter 3/4/09) and you did shop him around 2 leagues last season.

While his season may be going well right now (although the .260 avg stinks) he’s not nearly in the same class as the other top players. Did he go 20-20 last year? Yes he did. But that’s one year. One year among several other injury plagued, can’t crack the lineup seasons. I know you didn’t protect him, but you shopped him around the league as if he was. I can’t blame you for making the effort, but then what happens when someone bites on the deal? What happens when someone offers you a 4 for 1 because they’re sold on your assessment of him? Are you going to accept the offer and hope the league votes it through or are you going to tell the owner that he’s giving up way too much for a player who, in actuality, has only had one decent year?

That to me…the definition of what a true bonafide keeper is…leads to the biggest problems with dump trades.